Braking Issue on Fords,

[TS-50]

I know one member will attack this point, as they have already had a whinge about a comment where I had made it about the issue all the fords seem to be having with Braking not being as consistent as required , ( which was also an issue with nissans as well at Symmons)
apropos of those issues we have a new rule for this weekend on one of the fastest tracks, . . . NO BRAKE CHANGES. . . .so what's the deal with that?
[bgn]


http://www.v8supercars.com.au/news/championship/thems-the-brakes/undefined

DJR Team Penske’s expectations are measured heading to Phillip Island, as the team looks to overcome braking issues that have plagued the Ford Falcon FG Xs.
A new rule implemented this weekend means teams cannot change brakes from qualifying onwards, which DJR Team Penske managing director Ryan Story says could prove an “interesting challenge”.
The rule is applicable at the WD-40 Phillip Island SuperSprint, Winton and Sydney Motorsport Park events, and is expected to save teams one set of rotors and pads per event.
While DJR Team Penske has shown early pace with pole positions and Fabian Coulthard’s top three finish at the grand prix, last event in Tasmania highlighted the brake issue.
“What we are doing is relying on the brake to turn the car,” Story explained.
“So you are taking a lot more bite out of the brake and they are glazing up and all the other sorts of things that basically take the life out of them.
“So what’s going to be an interesting challenge even at a higher speed track like Phillip Island where you are heavily reliant on braking is seeing what the change to brake allocation means … at the moment we are using it quite heavily to turn the car out of the slow stuff.”
For Coulthard, it has proven a key difference to the Brad Jones Racing Holden Commodore he is used to steering.
“It’s all related to what we continue to talk about and that’s getting the car to turn. That’s something he’s spoken about quite a lot, that being a fundamental difference to what he has had in past years compared to what he has now,” Story explained.
“And we see that a lot with the Fords. We are not quite as strong in the slower speed stuff as we are on the faster stuff.
“That’s what he needs to be getting his head around and what we need to be working on to make the package better and make it more comfortable for him.”
Story believes the issue isn’t specific to their FG Xs.
“It’s a fairly consistent thing across all the Fords I think you will find.
“It’s something that we have spoken about at length, because it is something that Marcos [Ambrose] picked up when he first got in the car and it’s been something for our team in particular that we have been thinking about for quite a while.
“With the FG X package there are some pretty impressive strengths but unfortunately the weaknesses are fairly telling as well.
“It does make it a challenge, but it is an engineering process that we have to work through to try and understand how best to address it.
“It’s one of those things where if you took a big swing at it you might find that your strengths are not your strengths any more.”
This weekend, Story believes DJR Team Penske will be in the mix and improve on its showing in Tasmania.
“I think we will be better because it is a completely different style of circuit.
“Basically, what we find is the inherent factor with the Ford is that we are not that flash on slow speed stuff and fortunately there are enough fast turns at Phillip Island that it should balance out reasonably well.
“We will play to the strengths of the package and hope we will roll out in a similarly competitive fashion to where we were last year.
“Were it not for a few miss-steps we would have come away with a trophy from Phillip Island last year. So we are confident we should have a half reasonable package when we get there.”
The team runs a Pirtek livery this weekend, a flashback to Ambrose’s championship winning days in a V8 Supercar.

 

[Gerry]

I thought the brake package was the same on all cars?

 

[TS-50]

I thought the brake package was the same on all cars?

As far as I can tell, there is a control rotor set, a control caliper and control pads. Braking set ups are not precise as far as where and how they are applied

Front: Control AP Racing 6-Piston Caliper, 395 mm ventilated front disc brakes Rear: Control AP Racing 4-Piston Caliper 355 mm ventilated rear disc brakes

I can only assume that there is something about the geometry of how the brakes are either positioned or cooled or something else about them that makes Ford and more recently Nissan have noticeable lower braking performance.

 

[djr18fan]

Based on what Ryan is saying, the brakes are working harder on the Fords because of the way they are being driven.
And the FG-X teams have decided that using the brakes more in slow speed corners is a better way of getting speed through those corners, while enabling the suspension to be designed for optimising high speed corners. Could be something that has originated from a PRA philosphy or the Supa-Shock damper.
It sounds like they've sacrificed trying to achieve speed in slow corners through suspension design or set-up, in order to maximise speed in high speed corners. Then offset that slow corner speed deficiency by using the brakes in a different way. But as a result the brakes get a harder time.

Could there be a safety aspect to this decision following the experience of Rick Kelly at Tasmania? If I recall correctly, they changed pads mid race but left a cooked rotor on the car only for it to explode later in the race. Perhaps it would have been safer for everyone if that car retired from the race with fading brakes rather than being allowed to complete a partial repair in a hasty pit-stop situation?
Or it could be a category decision such as - these brakes are control parts and we don't want to change the control part. Therefore all teams need to be forced to engineer cars to use brakes within the control parts parameters? Rather than pushing them too far? I'm not excited if that is the reasoning.

Have we got the full details of the rule? If no changes are allowed from quali ownwards, then what happens if a car has a failure in race 1? Out for the weekend? Surely not. Does "cannot change brakes" mean "cannot change brake parts"? Are cars really not allowed to start race 2 on new pads? Change the fluid? Top up the fluid? Hoses?
It does seem strange to restrict changes on a part of the car that is a major safety item.

As far as the Fords go - perhaps tuning suspension to better suit low speed corners and therefore reduce reliance on the brakes is the way to go. As it would appear the Holdens and Volvos are engineered?

Has this come about as a result of a Nissan or Ford team complaining to V8Supercars that (because of the way we have chosen to engineer the car and drive it) the control brake package is not good enough and is costing the team a lot to maintain and replace? Did they ask for a control part change but instead have been told "change the way you drive to suit the brakes"?

 

[Bartman09]

I think it is a rule that Roland ah sorry V8Superfarce have brought in as he sorry again, they see DJRTP as a threat to the Teflon coated 888 outfit.

 

[TS-50]

As expected, . .our resident T888 Jizzburgler fan has come in with more speculation than fact in regard to the brake performance issue.

as a response let me just say, . .we are not seeing the Ford teams just cruising up beside the Holdens in the braking area and then out driving them off the corners, . . in fact we are seeing the exact opposite , . so I question how anyone could believe 'we' are sacrificing brake performance for more aggressive driving. . . no driver wants to end up with a rotor in pieces during a race, especially when they can change a set of pads and rotor in a lap if they need to , the rule is not designed to make it safer the rule will make drivers with brake problems stay out there until the inevitable happens.
[bgn]

 

[Donut King]

Braking performance is obviously a multi faceted issue, 888 obviously have an advantage in their setup because they can brake later and deeper than anybody else (and still make contact, push others wide and get off scott free, but that's another matter). It's not simply a case of Holdens all brake better, but it is a case of all Fords being a touch weaker under brakes than most.

Up until now, you would have to argue all fords shared much the same DNA due to the PRA/DJR technical partnership so therefore it may just be related to the development direction of the group. As the Ford runners begin to diverge on the development path and braking performance remains an issue on all Fords, then obviously there is a technical reason other than a common setup methodology, be that aerodynamics/cooling/suspension design/lack of intestinal fortitude to get off them sooner/whatever.

You can throw as many technically identical parts at the cars as you like, while ever there is a difference in aerodynamics and a difference in shock settings/suspension geometry/weight distribution (both in physical and aero loading) between them, there are obviously going to be variances in how those controlled components are going to perform due to the idiosyncrasies of the combination of the above and more.

The goal needs to be to ensure that the homologated and therefore fixed characteristics of an individual shape does not force the teams that run that shape into a development path that causes them to be disadvantaged due to needing to operate in such a different window to anyone else to be competitive, for whatever reason this is what happened with the COTF FG.

If a car is using its differently leading to higher wear/failures to eke out an advantage over the rest of the field and it will force everyone else to do likewise to remain competitive, then by all means stop it. That is what happened 2-3 years ago with fuel economy tunes. However if a car is being forced to come up with inventive ways to improve performance just to keep competitive and this is leading to high wear and/or failures, then the system has failed and punishing them with the introduction of such a rule is not the right road to be heading down.

My level of trust in the system to believe that the powers that be will take the correct course of action? [xx(]

 

[TS-50]

What the insinuation is here, is that Fabian , for example , is driving differently in the Ford then he did in the Holden, and thus he is having Braking issues because of the way he's driving the ford that he didn't have in his previous holden, . . I do not think that is the case

 

[Damo]

I think some people are forgetting the reason the Nissan had such a major drama with brakes at Tassie, the brake cooling duct came adrift and wasn't cooling the LHF brake assembly at all which completely cooked the rotor beyond all recovery, hence the rotor failure after the pit stop. I can't remember the Nissans having brake issues anywhere else before that, it was just a unfortunate for them it happened at a track that is one of, if not, the hardest on brakes.
On another note, I find it extraordinary that V8's choose to cut costs on the most fundamental and important safety item these cars have, surely they could find something else to cut costs on, although it is the easiest way to save around $7500 in the blink of an eye if a set of pads and rotors were going to be replaced.

 

[djr18fan]

Are PRA having brake issues?
I don't recall DJRTP having brake issues until reasonably recently. Something seems to have changed as they move further away from using PRA settings in the search to improve low speed turn in? The cars are getting faster so they must have made changes - those changes are producing more speed but more brake wear? Aerodynamics are supposed to matter more at high speeds so I don't get how aero can cause problems with low speed turn it yet be an advantage in high speed stuff. Front suspension design? Low speed corner = more steering angle. I don't know but I hope they get on top of it. Mind you a race car is never perfect!
If the brake rule has been introduced purely as a cost saver, (and it is only for the 3 tracks with a history of the lowest brake wear), then it may be that it is intended to help the lower budget teams remain competitive. If T8 and a few others are willing to change rotors and pads between races (because they can afford to) even though the gain is very small, then it forces other teams to either do the same or be a little less competitive in race 2. By not allowing T8, and others, to change brakes then it levels the playing field a little. The lower budget teams can be a bit more competitive at these 3 tracks and have a little more money to spend in other areas. Mind you the big budget teams will then have a bit more money to spend elsewhere as well, although hopefully it will not produce the gains that the same amount could produce at a lesser team.
Fabs & Scotty had no brake or speed issues yesterday. This afternoons race will be interesting. Let's hope safety is not compromised.

 

[Henry]

Something else I saw recently had Fabs or someone confirming that Marcos had highlighted similar issues last year... and Marcos was renowned as carrying brake for an unconventionally long time into the corner... lengthened brake use might be contributing to whatever issues DJRTP are having with the package, particularly in getting the nose to the apex of slow corners. Still, we just can't have the Falcons doing it more easily than the Commodores... that would be unconstitutional, wouldn't it?

 

[Hardies Hero]

What the insinuation is here, is that Fabian , for example , is driving differently in the Ford then he did in the Holden, and thus he is having Braking issues because of the way he's driving the ford that he didn't have in his previous holden, . . I do not think that is the case

Fabs is a left foot braker as well, a thing to remember is left foot brakers generally carry the brake and the throttle through a corner to give maximum speed with maximum stability. Not saying this is the root of the problem but could be a contributor.

 

[TS-50]

Fabs is a left foot braker as well, a thing to remember is left foot brakers generally carry the brake and the throttle through a corner to give maximum speed with maximum stability. Not saying this is the root of the problem but could be a contributor.

Typically the left foot brakers get a more consistent pedal pressure , but the point I was making is while he suffered brake performance loss in the Ford, he didn't have that issue in the holden he was driving, . . which is why I discounted driver style
alone as the issue . .

 

[TS-50]

unfair advantage? you tell me.

So I didn't want to start a new thread on this point alone, but as I have said previously, I reckon T888 gets an advantage with this kind of testing, . I don't see how anyone can say they wont ,

http://www.v8superfans.co.nz/whincup-is-completing-a-supercars-tyre-test-today/

How many laps outside of normal testing does T888 get testing tyres for a day, that the majority of other teams will not get on their car until practice day before a race?



Six-time champion Jamie Whincup is participating in a Supercars tyre test at Queensland Raceway today, looking at six different tyre compounds for possible 2017 introduction.
Supercars initially planned the test Winton, but after the recent race meeting at Winton had little degradation in the race, the series altered it plans for the Ipswich circuit.
Supercars sporting and technical director David Stuart and their technical team are at the track, along with Kevin Fitzsimons and Dunlop Sport staff, while the Triple Eight crew are running one their spare cars in a plain blue livery.
“We’ve got two different variants of the hard tyre and four different variants of the soft tyre – so it will be a full day,” Stuart told supercars.com.
“If we can get something that has the same or slightly better grip than the current soft, and a slightly higher degradation rate, that would be our goal for the soft tyre.
“And then if one of the hard tyre variants look attractive and matches up with the new soft, if we are heading in that direction we’ll see what we can do there as well.”

 

[Car61]

and... by definition, they will have collected 'data' too! [jk]

 

[djr18fan]

It's a pity that the re-surfacing of the Winton track resulted in that track being unsuitable for this testing. Because one PRA car and one HRT car were slated to do the testing there. As reported by Speedcafe.
I guess another track had to be found and those 2 Victorian teams didn't want to travel to Queensland. An upside is that PRA are not now being accused of getting an unfair advantage.
Then there's this: http://www.supercars.com/news/championship/crunching-the-numbers/

 

[TS-50]

There is a lot of support for how much T888 are giving back to the category, by volunteering their supposed Number one driver who is looking for all the miles on track that he can get and an unstickered car so we think it not a race car , and claims they didn't collect any data, . . I'm not sure why people making those claims on other forums would be claiming also to be ford fans and in some cases DJR fans? . . . if you want to be supportive of T888 and make every excuse under the sun when it is clear they get preferential treatment, I think you might just not be a Ford or DJR fan at all.

I'm wondering if anyone in the brass asked DJR if they'd like to put a car on track for this tyre test, in the name of parity?

 

[djr18fan]

I guess it shows some motor racing enthusiasts can be a fan of one particular team or brand, or driver for that matter - while still being generally supportive of the whole category - rather than having to hate on everything that isn't DJR or Ford.

Good question re DJRTP being asked. Could also ask if they, or any other team, have complained that it is unfair that T8 did this testing. If anyone is in a position to know if there is an advantage to T8 - it would be the teams.